I recently had yet another little contretemps with Bruce Veldhuisen of TEFL International here on TEFLtastic. I have a sneaking suspicion that his problem is simply with any public criticism, but if there was a disagreement worth dealing with between his insults, it seemed to be this:
– Having done a fair bit of research on the matter, I think that all protestations of quality of training, including accreditation, don’t tell people who are thinking of entering TEFL anything useful at all. They are therefore best off just choosing the course that their future employers will value most. Alternatively, they can eliminate schools from their shortlist by other signs of bad management and/ or a lack of focus on education such as these, and then choose from the schools that are left.
– Bruce maintained that things like lies about the competition on their website and regular online spats were irrelevant, and they could prove the quality of their courses were “as good as CELTA” by a public statement of their moderator saying as much.
Serious academic that Dr Brian Tomlinson is, he declined to get involved in making such an unscientific statement. That therefore leaves us with my criteria or nothing, at least until there are some proper accreditation standards out there. I have, however, managed to come up with a few ways that TEFL courses could theoretically be ranked. I’m busy communicating with a few influential people about the most realistic idea, and I’ll write about the other ones in future posts. In the meantime, I’d be very happy to hear other people’s ideas and comments on the desirability and possibility of any such thing.
TEFLtastic 
Don’t forget to include ‘appropriateness’
If a teacher is planning to teach in Thailand or many other SE Asian countries where the vast majority of work is in formal-schools teaching children a course that specifically specializes in teaching adults is wholly inappropriate.
I know members of the CELTA mafia will disagree and and try to spin this course, that is designed to prepare teachers for teaching adults in language schools, as appropriate for teaching children in a formal-school context. However, it isn’t.
‘homogeneous versus heterogeneous’ courses. Are courses homogeneous and offer one product regardless of the culture where the teacher plans to teach, or are there specific cultural considerations included in training, so that teachers don’t make faux pas while they work. I know a CELTA-trained teacher in Thailand who took off his shoe, raised it to his ear and used it as a ‘telephone’ when he was presenting language to use on the telephone. He was sacked the same day. One shoe doesn’t fit all… so to speak.
‘Additional benefits’. CELTA courses generally offer nothing, but courses that offer visa support, job support, airport collection and affordable accommodation are important to many people. It’s scary leaving a safe western environment and many people need that extra support.
From what I have seen previously on this blog, the criteria used to rank TEFL courses here will spin CELTA and attack independents. There’s more to a course than being associated with a well-known university Alex.
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Don’t forget ‘location’.
Should a training centre be legal and licensed by the local authorities, or is it OK to run regular training courses in unlicensed offices and holiday resorts?
Who inspects the school and vouches for its legal status?
What information does the training course provide publicly about their status (school license number etc.)?
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Billy
I meant how it might be possible to rank them in general, rather than the specific criteria you use. It might be more obvious what I mean when I do the posts with examples.
Quite how I can be more biased than someone who works for a Thailand-based TEFL course provider but refuses to say which, I cannot imagine. If someone really can predict that they only want to teach kids and only in Thailand, you might have a point. Is your course specific to kids, or does it claim to teach both in 4 weeks? Anyway, most people choose Thailand because courses are cheap and intend to work elsewhere.
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Alex,
I’m glad you keep this issue in the fore.
I’ll add – there are several larger accreditation agencies out there. I know, I’ve locked into one for the course I’ll be releasing soon. It doesn’t end the need for the student to have a critical eye and also look at the value / $ – but it is something.
As always, it is the trainer that is the proof in the pudding and students should use that as the core standard. Not just someone’s statement that the trainer was “Wow” . All our learning styles differ. Judging a trainer by their experience (especially in the classroom), contribution to the profession and work/research (online and off).
Cheers,
David
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I like the idea and perhaps it would be possible to come up with a ‘TEFL certificate index’ ?
All certs like to claim that they are ‘internationally recognized’, yet they may only have one center in one country. If they’ve got only one, then they get one point. 20 or more in different countries? two points.
There could be a truth in advertising category. Three of more big whoppers and they get a zero for that one.
Do they supply enough information on their website about their trainers for consumers to make an informed decision ?
Etc. …
I think that something like that might be possible and it would certainly be interesting to try one out. Anything would be better than what we’ve got now.
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I don’t see the connection between ‘internationally recognized’ and the number of locations.
Cambridge University has only one location, but it is ‘internationally recognized’.
I think if websites don’t include enough information ‘for consumers to make an informed decision’, then people won’t buy their product. Consumers are buying a product over the Internet from people they have never met. I think people are capable of making their own decisions.
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Unfortunately, if people don’t know any better, then they often DO buy the product. An uneducated consumer is a used car salesman’s dream come true.
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“I don’t see the connection between ‘internationally recognized’ and the number of locations.”
There comes a point where one has to admit that McDonald’s is more of an international corporation than Bob’s hamburger stand in Fargo, North Dakota.
Accepted/required/requested by employers could be a seen as something different. And quality control as yet another.
Just food for thought…
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it would be nice if once in the history of your site (or should I say your life) you had a fair and accurate comment about Bruce TEFL International. And you wonder why he thinks you are an (insert many appropriate insult you want). We all agree with him wholeheartedly.
No one ever said: “things like lies about the competition on their website and regular online spats were irrelevant, and they could prove the quality of their courses were “as good as CELTA” by a public statement of their moderator saying as much.”
In fact, we apologized more than once for the errors and changed them immediately. Bruce accepted responsibility himself. So who lies? That would be you, Mr. Case.
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I will also note, here publicly,and for your own embarrassment, Mr. Case, that you are in fact breaking your own rule?
“Any continuing discussions from here elsewhere will be deleted, and continuing offenders will be banned from commenting.”
So we are all hoping, praying, and begging that you will be banning yourself immediately.
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Finally, Mr. Tomlinson has made a very public statement regarding TEFL International. it follows:
“I’ve been very impressed by the professionalism and expertise of the TEFL International Lead Trainers and especially by the way they make use of experiential approaches to teacher development. They help their trainees to develop personally and professionally from observation, self-reflection, materials development and the application of theory to practice as teachers in the classroom.” Brian Tomlinson, noted author, Teacher Trainer and TEFL International’s moderator.
Or are you saying this comment is inaccurate?
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I have been instructed by my boss to quit visiting and posting on this site. I will quote him here; “That site is a waste of time and (name deleted) is a complete (insult deleted). Don’t waste your time. There is nothing we could ever say or do that will change his mind.
” But I will be sending out a few Emails to some friends so they can chare their opinions of Mr. Case and his way of doing things here.
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I find one thing very odd. Why would anyone claim that TEFL International is at all afraid of public criticism? When I finished the course in 2008 I made several negative comments on the feedback and those comments were then posted directly onto the TEFL International website for all to see. In fact these comments are still there, along with negative comments from a handful of others. But its very clear that overall people taking this course are very satisfied.
I very much doubt the CELTA does anything similar to this.
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TeflTastic = Fox News
Alex Case = Glenn Beck
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Carl
To give you just three examples of TEFL International reacting to criticism:
– Threads about them on Dave’s ESL Cafe locked, unlocked so that they can comment, and then locked again before anyone else can
– Setting up a whole anti-IATQUO site because IATQUO had criticised them
– Insulting people like me
Cambridge have never done any of those things. In fact, they just ignore all online criticism because they know they have a good reputation in the industry. If TEFL International have to worry about such things, should we blame me for posting about them once a year or so, or should we perhaps blame their own websites and CEO?
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Admin
My point was not that Bruce didn’t make the changes, as I have acknowledged several times that he did (although apparently you were unable to find my reply to your own comment where I first did so). Bruce claimed that such things were not relevant to people judging the quality of TI courses. Or does he now agree with me that such things show such dodgy management that TI should only be approached with extreme caution?
Is that statement by Brian the same as “TI is as good as the CELTA”? I think not. Bruce claimed he could settle this once and for all by getting Brian to make a public statement of exactly that. I offered him this blog on which to do so. Bruce then changed from threatening to tell Brian about me to refusing to send the link to Brian, so I contacted Brian myself. Brian refused to have anything to do with the matter. As I have repeatedly offered, if Brian changes his mind I will publish anything he has to say about TI in any format he wishes. I really don’t know how I can say fairer than that.
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PS
If your judgements about TI are accurate, I’d think that you’d have a lot to gain from a serious discussion about ranking TEFL courses.
PPS
If there are no accurate statements about TI on this site, what does that say about all Bruce’s answers the four times that I gave him free rein for his views on TEFLtastic by interviewing him?
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We all just want to know when you are going to ban yourself.
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Thanks for these constant reminders to get back to those other pieces I am writing on TEFL International. These silly attempts to distract from the main question in this post suggests at least one of the below:
– People associated with TI have no interest in the industry when it doesn’t directly affect them
– TI feel like they would have something to fear from a ranking of TEFL courses
– No one has any answer to the claim I made that bad management is a pretty good sign that a TEFL course should be avoided
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I clearly recall seeing an ad for the CELTA through UCLES not long ago that said the CELTA course was the “Most rigorous” and thinking, what a ridiculous claim that is. I took the 240-hour TESOL course at UC Berkley. So the CELTA was more rigorous?
So much for truth in advertising and Alex’s claim that no legitimate TESOL course would have errors or inaccurate statements. Unless, of course, this means that the CELTA is worthless? I always get a kick out of the brits who are so blinded by national pride or British Council brain washing that they rant on about how only a fool would take any other course.
But I must agree with the earlier posters in a number of areas. First of all, Alex clearly has some axe to grind and some clear favorites so any ratings system or review of a course will be hopelessly flawed by his biases. Also, he has broken his own rule by rehashing his old battle with TEFL International. Its some kind of Don Quixote complex from the looks of it. My feeling is he loses credibility every time he brings it up.
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“No one has any answer to the claim I made that bad management is a pretty good sign that a TEFL course should be avoided”
And exactly what evidence do you have that TEFL International is under bad management? Because the owner and a few others were unappreciative of your online criticism? That has nothing to do with management. At worst its a bit of poor PR. I would say, from the ads I see, marketing is being managed fine. From the growth of the organization over the years, the business side seems to be doing well. From the academic side they are being externally moderated by a very respected professional which is more than almost all the other courses can say. None of their graduates seem to be complaining about difficulty in getting a job. Employers are not complaining about poorly-trained teachers. Is there something I am missing?
Your inference that TEFL International is poorly managed seems to be purely based upon your own limited experience. For the rest of the world it would seem that TEFL International, by its rate of growth alone, is very well managed indeed!
I look forward to more ideas as to why you feel it is poorly managed and in what specific areas.
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I thought I should discuss the rest of your claims because, like your assessment of management, they seem to have little basis in reality.
“People associated with TI have no interest in the industry when it doesn’t directly affect them”
And how would you know that? I would imagine an organization like TEFL International must have at least 100 employees. Do you know who they are, let alone what they do and how much they care about their industry? I will not even bother discussing how you also know that other organizations are more interested in the industry than TEFL International’s.
– TI feel like they would have something to fear from a ranking of TEFL courses
I think it would appear they are not terribly interested in your rankings because you seem to have an agenda or, at the very least, a difficult time judging things without allowing your personal opinions to cloud the issue. And I state that based upon the evidence of your claims that i have refuted above!
This has obviously become personal for you and you really should just admit that.
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hey everyone. don’t let facts get in the way of a perfectly good lynching by alex!
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I’m really bored with listing all the proof that it isn’t something personal, but if you really want yet more proof here is a link to a post where I chased up the online lies of completely unconnected TEFL organisations:
Anyway, it wouldn’t be my rankings, I am trying to come up with a way of ranking courses in general as Bruce’s way (statement from Brian) didn’t happen and he didn’t seem very happy with my criteria such as these https://www.tefl.net/elt/articles/training-articles/avoid-tefl-course/. I’m working on a proposal to an ELT publication that I have no connection with for them to set up some kind of ranking, with absolutely no involvement from me bar the initial idea of having one. Part of that could show how involved an organisation is with the more general TEFL world, and will write more about that part of it soon.
I’m quite happy to list the levels of incompetence involved in the (self-admitted) lies on their website again, but I thought you were all complaining about me making this post about TEFL International. Your call.
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Dawn
I do have an axe to grind, against all online lies and similar abuses, e.g. this campaign which I started:
Some of the people affected would be CELTA course providers. (No idea about TI on this one, will find out when I review another one of their sites in a month or so).
If you can find evidence of such a silly claim by Cambridge ESOL or a CELTA course provider, I will certainly publish it.
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Actually I was just pointing out how you seem to be wrong and I am a bit disappointed that you fail to respond to my points.
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I would also like to know what happened to the post about QueenMac75? I thought it was very insightful.
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Will you delete this also?
the results of the thread you used to criticize the management of TEFL International.
Queenmac75
The decision from the BBB dispute with TEFL International came in on May 19, 2009.
The official decision of the BBB:
“The consumer’s request for a refund is denied. The business does not have any obligation to provide credit to the consumer for the deposit.”
However, TEFL International (BV) contacted me after the decision and still offered me the opportunity to apply the $500 deposit towards a future class. Since they were under no obligation to do so after the BBBs decision, I do appreciate them honoring the original offer.
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I’m glad you think your own comments are insightful. I thought it was too off topic even for this thread. I have never mentioned this person on my blog and I made no contribution to that ESLteachersboard thread. Or are you claiming otherwise?
I think the only question I haven’t answered is the TI taking no interest in TEFL one. I’m working on a more scientific way of judging such things, but here are some such examples:
– I’ve never seen a single article from a TEFL International trainer in any of the paper publications I read, and I read three or four regularly.
– I’ve never seen a forum comment or blog comment from a TI trainer that wasn’t related to TI
– Despite this being a top 20 blog that has mentioned TI plenty of times before, apparently no one in that organisation had a RSS feed to it, looked at Onestopblogs where it is listed, subscribed to any of the major TEFL twitterers who mentioned it (I don’t Tweet myself), or had Google Alerts going on relevant topics
– None of the top bloggers are TI trainers, as far as I know.
– I don’t know of any TI trainers who contribute to the sites of the big publishers, e.g. Onestopenglish
– I don’t know of any free materials for teachers offered by TI trainers, e.g. something like Breaknewsenglish
– I don’t know of any major books written by TI trainers
With Cambridge trainers, most or all of those things would be quite the opposite.
I’ve repeatedly asked for evidence of any of those things by TI trainers, but have never had any reply. If you happen to know of any, feel free to list them here.
I believe I have now answered all your questions except listing TI incompetence again. If that is what you want me to do, please just let me know.
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You are avoiding the issues but that’s obvious to anyone reading.
Good night.
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Well, my priorities are improving the standard of teaching and teacher training, and improving our industry’s often dodgy image. If they have different priorities, that is for them to say and is of course their choice
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Don’t bother Alex with differing opinions. His mind is made up. They do not do what HE thinks is the appropriate thing to do. That’s all that matters. Helping kids is meaningless. Posting on blogs Alex posts on, now THAT is important.
He cannot bring himself to admit that others have brought evidence that he is wrong. Men.
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I am sorry for inferring that all men are as closed-minded and opinionated as Alex is. That is obviously not true.
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Also, what a wonderful project! Cudos to TEFL International for their involvement.
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So, Teachergirl, you don’t think the three things on my list are important?
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Allow me to predict Alex’s next move. He will insist that TEFL International is involved with this worthy project only because of his criticism. This despite the fact that they have never apparently mentioned what appears to be a long-standing association with this project.
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I have responded to all three of your accusations. The first has no basis. The second is simply a matter of opinion and priorities. The third is pure speculation.
What an ego you have, Mr. Case.
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Teachergirl
Congratulations, with that last comment you have reached a new low in online debate – predicting a future comment from someone else, and one which isn’t based on anything else they have previously written.
The sexist comment before that wasn’t exactly a high point in debating skills either. I guess you have no evidence of TI trainers doing any of those things in my list above then
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I can speculate on future behavior based upon past behavior. For instance, if a dog pees on the carpet every day for a year, you can predict he will bdo the same today too.
Your performance here, over months, certainly reflects very poorly upon your education. Can you enlighten us on which educational institutions you are embarrassing?
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I meant the three things in my list of priorities.
You also haven’t responded to any of my responses.
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When did I claim credit for TI making changes?
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Coming from someone who practically defines “low” in online debate, this is a great compliment.
“Congratulations, with that last comment you have reached a new low in online debate – predicting a future comment from someone else, and one which isn’t based on anything else they have previously written.
The sexist comment before that wasn’t exactly a high point in debating skills either. I guess you have no evidence of TI trainers doing any of those things in my list above then”
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You would need to ask them about what their trainers do or do not do. But, after all the stuff you have been shoveling, they probably feel no need to respond to you.
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I’ve been asking that question since the first or second interview with Bruce, which was years ago, and the question has always been ignored. I tried again in the recent flurry of emails with him, the one after he claimed to never duck questions. Again, no response (even as the insults continued).
So you, personally, have never seen any evidence of them doing any of those things either? Anyone?
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If you treat people with a bit of respect it will be returned. You teat people as you treat them, they respond in kind. I have read the interviews. Show us where this question was avoided?
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So, which insults was Bruce responding to when he wrote these things:
“you guys really are kind of jerks, aren’t you!”
“Exactly when was it that most internet forums were taken over by people with the emotional age of a fifth grader?”
“this site is the perfect example. Mean spirited and often ignorant internet hooligans–tough guys with keyboards.”
“I am so glad my own children are not as arrogant and rude as many of you here.”
“its children like you that made me swear off these boards”
“I can only imagine how pathetic your life is to make you so bitter and sad.”
“Hope you make rent this month, buddy.”
“you are mean-spirited, narrow-minded person who…just generally dislikes people and things that have had more success in life than you have.”
And which insults did I respond with in the “eye for an eye” way you are suggesting?
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You’ve read through all four interviews and all their hundreds of comments?? You obviously aren’t looking after the baby like I am today… I will try to find it if I find time later
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well may I add something? could it be that they don’t really like tooting their own horn? I know that they have run to free conferences in thailand and I’m pretty sure that there are even more overseas. I attended 1. david nunan was the key speaker. but it seems like all of their trainers were involved. the conference was ssian university. there were about 400 people there. most of them were tight teachers. it was better than the tesol conference and free instead of ridiculously expensive.
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it seems to me you deserve every insult but that’s just me
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This isn’t exactly what I was looking for but is connected to TI trainer publications and contribution to the wider world of TEFL. From a quick glance at the beginning of interview Part Three:
“Hi Bruce, welcome back to TEFLtastic. It’s a shame we never get anyone from TEFL International contributing to TEFL.net when it isn’t connected to teacher training. Let me know if any of your trainers are interested in writing book reviews or articles for us.
I am certain that can be arranged!”
It never was, despite reminders.
I’ll try and have a proper read through later.
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Free conferences for local teachers. Another of your little theories debunked. But will your readers get an acknowledgment or even an apology?
My reading of your question and his response is that it “could be arranged” that trainers were informed of your desire. But did you really expect someone to force these trainers to contribute to your website? Again, the ego. Amazing.
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Oh, dear perfect Alex is the perfect example. He would never post, or allow others to post, in a childish and rude way!
“Looks like more trawling by Bruce’s surrogates on various sites — it’s all obvious to us, but people new to TEFL don’t know the difference and get sucked in.”
“A new level of tacky TEFL money grubbing, imho”
“Maybe the recent emails to me and Sandy really were supposed to prompt us to start attacking him because he missed the attention…”
“That’s too funny . Ands that’s Bruce — you think he’d learn. They should just change the name to TROUBLE International. hahaha…”
Alex, we all learned in the first grade, if you act like a jerk you will be treated like a jerk and probably called a jerk.
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This is s entertaining!
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I am glad you are entertained Sgirl, but this is about accountability. Mr. Case believes himself to be some kind of expert in TEFL. But he is obviously biased and making decisions based not only upon his bias but incomplete information. Give a person like this a computer and an internet connection and he becomes dangerous.
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Dear publishers:
Is this the kind of person you want to hire?
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I have a request for all of our supporters out there. Drop it.
I agree that Alex and a few of his friends on this blog have been less than professional. And I let them know how I feel. Maybe some of you even think I over reacted. Perhaps i did.
I do not think Alex and his friends are very fair in their assessment of TEFL International but that’s his opinion and i and the rest of you are not going to change it. But I do believe, if a fair and unbiased assessment was indeed made, TEFL International would be at or near the top. Its certainly nothing that I fear.
Its time to move on. Harassing the guy is not going to help. Some of you have made compelling arguments that future readers can consider. I appreciate your support. But I suggest doing something more constructive. its easy to get caught up in thee discussions–easy and also unhealthy. You will change no ones mind here.
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I am glad that Bruce supports my idea for a ranking, and I’ll be sure to pass on his contact details to whoever sets up such a system. I’m also glad that he has realised that insults, vague threats of legal action, trolling by his chums (e.g. attributing quotes by others to me) etc are not going to silence me. However, his new tactic of finally being a bit civil in his baseless accusation that I am the one being unprofessional also isn’t going to silence me either. For example, if I find more lies on their websites when I check them in a few weeks, I will publish the fact, and I will be happy to have your comments at that time. I am also happy to continue the discussion here. For example, I’d like to hear Teachergirl’s (or anyone else’s) answers to the questions that she has been dodging:
“So you, personally, have never seen any evidence of them doing any of those things either?”
“When did I claim credit for TI making changes?”
“So, Teachergirl, you don’t think the three things on my list are important?”
“You’ve read through all four interviews and all their hundreds of comments??”
“And which insults did I respond with in the “eye for an eye” way you are suggesting?”
“I have never mentioned this person on my blog and I made no contribution to that ESLteachersboard thread. Or are you claiming otherwise?”
When she has answered those, she can also point out any questions she thinks I am dodging, if she likes.
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Alex,
He is not trying to silence you.
He is angry at your bias.
There is a difference.
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No one has shown one single way in which I am biased against TEFL International, nor one single reason why I should be. There have been some hilarious attempts though, e.g. it’s because of all the people in the world I could be jealous of I’m jealous of Bruce (rather than George Clooney, for example), because I’ve been brainwashed by the British Council (no doubt in one of their famous jungle prisons), and best of all – that I can’t change my mind because I am a man!
Now let’s look at the other side, shall we? The CEO and founder of TEFL International claims to believe that TI is as good as Cambridge. The only evidence he could provide for that claim was getting his moderator to make such a public claim, and his moderator refused to even do that. Then there are the people who tried to hide their connections to TI with weasel words like “I’m not working for TI”, all of whom obviously ended up on this thread because Bruce emailed them and asked them to contribute – seeing as how it was a dead thread, none of those people had ever commented before, and they all shut up the minute Bruce told them to. The only exception is “Billy”, someone who runs another Thailand-based TEFL course who is still annoyed because he isn’t allowed to abuse the IATEFL logo anymore and so has decided to become a troll in revenge.
So, which side do you think people should believe, hey?
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Alex
you
just
don’t
get
it
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Another thorough and convincing destruction of my arguments there…
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No one needs to show a thing. You do that all on your own. I have nothing to do with either side of this issue but I can see it.
Teachergirl has destroyed every one of your arguments and you just ignore her comments as if they did not already prove her point.
Any unbiased observer would conclude you have issues.
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Perhaps you are thinking of the comment where she disproves a point I didn’t make by mixing up quotes by me and other people on various topics as if they were all quotes by me on Bruce and TEFL International? No? Then please do point out which.
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In just one of her several excellent points she says
He would never post, or allow others to post, in a childish and rude way!
So its pretty clear that she knows all of the posts are not yours. However, since you make the owner responsible for all content in his website certainly you are responsible for all the content on yours. You did not try to correct any of the posts. Or are you holding others to a higher standard than you are willing to live by?
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Really? That really is the best example you could find?
I never said that. I said that I had not insulted Bruce, either before or after he insulted me. And I know that she knows that not all of those comments are mine, she deliberately mixed them up in the hope that others would think they were all mine. So she disproved a point I didn’t make with the worst trolling tactics.
If I am responsible for all the comments on here, maybe I am responsible for calling myself a jerk etc, and Bruce has no responsibility… As this thread makes quite clear, my general policy is to allow all comments that are more or less on topic – even when they are as pointless as most of the ones here.
Next?
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Well you did. You were in fact quite insulting. You may not have called him a name, but you were certainly insulting. We are not stupid.
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Next?
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Look, everyone, Alex is just trying to improve the quality of TEFL training, what is the problem with that?!
I’ve read everyone’s comments here and I see that everyone is missing the point of this article entirely, especially Billy, who has something against CELTA, and Teachergirl, who obviously works for or did a course with TEFL International.
Please, could everyone just stop the bickering and discuss TEFL Ranking in a mature way without ganging up on Alex or anyone else?
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